Humans have always used stories to make sense of the world…that’s just how our brains work. And, so it makes sense that we need stories to help us understand the enormity of climate change.
Today, we talk with Jeff Goodell, Katharine Wilkinson, and Nathaniel Rich—three authors who write books that people want to read…maybe can’t put down…about the biggest existential threat of our time: climate change.
We cover the importance of storytelling, what they've learned through the work and how the heck they even figure out what stories to write. There's even a cameo appearance by... the sex life of porcupines?
For more information about the authors and their books featured in today’s episode, please check out these websites:
- Jeff Goodell: https://jeffgoodellwriter.com
- Katharine Wilkinson: https://www.kkwilkinson.com
- Nathaniel Rich: https://nathanielrich.com
Hosted by Halle Parker and Carlyle Calhoun. Our managing producer is Carlyle Calhoun. Our sound designer is Maddie Zampanti. Sea Change is a production of WWNO and WRKF. We are part of the NPR Podcast Network and distributed by PRX.
TRANSCRIPT
Note: Transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors (including name spellings). Please be aware that the official record for our episodes is the audio version.
<<pensive music>>
JEFF: When the heat comes, it's invisible. It doesn't bend tree branches or blow hair across your face to let you know it's arrived. The ground doesn't shake. It just surrounds you and works on you in ways that you can't anticipate or control. The sun feels like the barrel of a gun pointed at you. Plants look like they're crying. The air smells burned. You can imagine fire even before you see it. (:25)
CARLY: That was Jeff Goodell reading from his recently published book, The Heat Will Kill You First.
HALLE: Wow, powerful imagery.
CARLY: Yeah, even just the title is powerful and… terrifying. And, that’s the thing with Jeff Goodell’s writing, he takes on the scariest impacts of climate change, and somehow makes books about them that I can not put down.
HALLE: Really, climate change itself is the same way. You can’t look away — even if you try, it’s still smacking us all in the face. And great writing does that too.
<<theme music>>
I’m Halle Parker.
CARLYLE: And, I’m Carlyle Calhoun, and this is Sea Change.
HALLE: Today, we’re talking with three authors who do just that: they write books that people want to read…maybe can’t put down…about the biggest existential threat of our time: climate change.
CARLYLE: Humans have always used stories to make sense of the world…that’s just how our brains work. And, so it makes sense that we need stories to help us understand the enormity of climate change.
HALLE: Storytelling can be part of the solution…in fact, it’s necessary. Stories that not only provide us with the facts, but help us move toward action.
CARLYLE: These writers you talked with Halle, they offer their own perspectives on the power of storytellers and also where hope fits into the narrative of climate change.
HALLE: And they had a lot of thoughts to share. You are about to hear a fascinating conversation, and even a little bit of debate, with authors, Jeff Goodell, who you heard at the beginning of the episode, along with Nathaniel Rich, the author of books including Losing Earth and Second Nature, and Katherine Wilkinson, editor of the best-selling anthology All We Can Save, oh, and she was named one of Time Magazine’s “women who will save the world.”
CARLYLE: I’m such a fan of all of these writers and I can’t wait to hear this! Let’s get into it.
<<interview begins, theme music fades out>>
HALLE: I have esteemed authors Jeff Goodell, Dr. Katherine Wilkinson, and Nathaniel Rich with me today to talk about what it's like writing through the climate crisis. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. So happy to have you guys here.
Jeff, let's start with you, if that's okay. In your book, The Water Will Come, you describe visits to these places that are likely to be inundated by rising sea levels. Do you mind sharing about how those experiences shaped your perspective on just the urgency of climate action and how you convey that in your writing?
JEFF: Wow, that's a big question.
HALLE: It is.
JEFF: Well, you know, my book about sea level rise started with Hurricane Sandy when it hit New York. I was wandering around downtown in the aftermath and watching people carrying their sort of soggy couches out of their apartments and dealing with with all what nine feet of water does to a place. And I was thinking about how to write about it, and I was talking to a friend of mine who's a climate scientist, and he said, well, 1 thing to think about is, you know, this 9 feet of water is something like the sort of high end of what we might think about with sea level rise at the end of the century.
Imagine if that much water came in and then never went out and then he said, you really want to blow your mind. Go have that same sort of thought experiment in Miami. So I went down to Miami a few months later during high tides and I was wandering around this neighborhood called Sunset Harbor. Which is a very rich neighborhood.
I actually ran into Lenny Kravitz, the rocking dude, as I was wandering around through like a foot and a half of water. And I was like, just blew my mind. You know, there was a foot and a half of water in the streets of Miami on a sunny day, and I immediately just. Realize, oh my God, this city is doomed. You know, the difficulty of trying to convey what that means and trying to write about both the present and the future is always a problem with climate change made a little bit easier with sea level rise in, in that case because it was already happening. You could already see it happening.
Halle: Yeah. That is some really heavy stuff to experience and then also try to convey within your book, and I mean, that's something that you guys all do. If I can hop over to Nathaniel, Losing Earth is, you know, this very deeply researched account of that decade from 1979 to 1989 when we first came to like a comprehensive understanding of climate change.
Looking at that historical period, how did that inform your views on our current response to climate change?
Nathaniel Rich: Yeah, it's, it's like through the looking glass. I mean, there's reality and our political realities of that period. We're so different from the current status quo. And really, to go back to this period right before 79 to 89 is, is fascinating.
It's like a bizarro version of reality that most people, including a lot of people who think very deeply about these issues today have forgotten. The other thing that's fascinating about that period is that you don't have the same paralysis around the possibility of any kind of meaningful climate policy.
In fact, you have during the decade. This very dramatic march from early awareness of the problem, 1979, essentially there's consensus scientifically about man made climate change. It was not seen as a partisan issue yet, and you have people like Reagan and the first George Bush campaigning on solving the greenhouse gas effect.
And then, of course, it all falls apart. You know, there's something obviously depressing and tragic about this missed opportunity when things were still fluid and there was still a sense of possibility. But there's also something sobering about how even before you have this massive coordinated.
Disinformation campaign funded, it was still a very, very, uh, difficult problem for people to solve, at least in our political system, you know, is grounding in a way. And it, it forced me to think more deeply that every year is. The warmest year of all time and the coldest year of the rest of our lives. How does this knowledge changing the way we live now?
And I don't just mean about, you know, dealing with insurance or moving to higher ground. I mean, the way we think about our lives, our place in society, and ultimately that. You know where the book centers on and really most of my writing centers on is, you know, how do these vast this vast public crisis, um, touch our inner lives
Halle: And to you, Catherine, you've just been involved in so many different climate projects from writing and editing books, co-founding the All We Can Save project, which I am a huge fan of All We Can Save, by the way, absolutely wonderful. How do you see the role of community and collaboration in both your writing and your broader climate work?
Katharine: Oh, I love this question, Hallie. The first book project I did, I did solo. It's a book called Between God and Green.
That was basically the rewrite of my PhD research and dissertation. And I think maybe after that, I was like, I don't want to do this alone. Um, you know, I think part of it is just kind of, we're, we're all built for different things, um, and I really love collaboration, but I also think we're in a moment when.
We really need kaleidoscopic perspectives, right? We need to be seeing the climate crisis through many lenses. There's a real power of bringing together people who are. Engaged in this work in many different ways, seeing what is possible through many different sets of lenses. The analysis gets deepened. I think every time you turn the kaleidoscope to see, well, I understand the problem slightly more like this.
And I would put my emphasis here. And I also have become really enamored with bringing together not just classic nonfiction or essay writing, but melding that with poetry and also visual art. You know, to the fangirls point about what this means for our inner landscapes, so much of that is full of ambiguity, nuance, complexity, contradiction, lots of questions that don't have easy answers and maybe don't lend themselves even to sentences or paragraphs or conclusions of chapters.
Um, and so the subtitle of the anthology, all we can save is truth, courage. And solutions for the climate crisis. And of course, truth has many different dimensions to it. Courage grows in each of us in many different ways. And of course, there's an enormous, wonderful cornucopia of solutions that we have at hand and helping people see.
The narrative of possibility that grows out of all of those data points brought together in in narrative form. So that's some of what, yeah, gets me gets me out of bed
Halle: to do this work. And that's what gets you going, um, All of you guys also happen to live in the South. Jeff, you're in Austin, Texas, right?
And Catherine, you're in Atlanta, Georgia. Nathaniel is here in New Orleans with me. And I mean, even as we're talking, parts of the Gulf South are experiencing this record breaking heat wave. How do each of you navigate the emotional toll of writing about this daunting topic while living through it yourself?
Jeff: I'll jump in on that because I'm in Austin, Texas, right now.
Katherine: You're in the heat dome, Jeff.
Jeff: I'm in the belly of the beast. But the weird thing is, is that I have a book coming out next week about extreme heat. And so it feels to me like I'm like. Living in my own book, which is very bizarre and kind of surreal and in all kinds of ways, but people ask me all the time because I've been writing about climate change, you know, for 20 years and people ask me, like, why aren't you just like in your basement, drinking yourself to death or something, you know, and like, how can you continue to think about this?
And I don't quite understand that question because I don't, for me, it's sort of the opposite. When I first started writing about climate change, it was like I was writing about the sex life of porcupines or something. It was like this cute little thing that some people were curious about but didn't really have any meaning to anybody's lives or anything.
And now it's the central conversation of our world, as Catherine was saying, you know, the diversity of people who are involved in it now are so much broader and different than it used to be. And the great thing about writing about this for me is, you know, I meet so many really inspiring people who are thinking about how to build a better world, and it never even occurs to me to write about anything else.
Nathaniel Rich: I think that's really well put. But I agree and I guess I would, I would even push it farther and say, how could you write about anything else? And, and I say that not, not because it's to say that every other issue is less important, more out of a sense that this has become not just an important subject among the other important subjects that you should read about in the newspaper.
It's the fabric of our reality. You can ignore it. No less than you could ignore, you know, if you're writing in Europe in 1942, like trying to ignore a war. The novel would feel false, and I feel the same way about climate. It's become the atmosphere of our time, a culture. It's so intertwined now with sort of almost every major social issue of our, of our time, and certainly any question of inequality is exacerbated by climate.
New Orleans, I mean, one thing that I love about being here, and certainly people, you know, in this context are always, uh, look at me incredulously, you know, why are you living in the most endangered? City most endangered by climate change, uh, in the country. And part of it is, well, it's people here are, um, their eyes are open.
We understand the reality. People know what's going on. And, and people are aware of the risks and live with them. And it's part of what gives this place its frankness and its beauty as well. And so I think living in a place like this has helped me really keep my eyes open. Whereas I think if I lived in other, other, other parts of the world, I think it's a lot easier to sort of pretend that you're immune in some way, although increasingly less so, perhaps.
Halle: Sounds almost like you feel like it's better to be living here through
Nathaniel Rich: it. I do think it's, it's not better for my insurance rate, um, but it's not better for my, um, anxiety, uh, during hurricane season, but I think holistically. You're alive to where you are. And if anything, I think it brings people here closer together.
I mean, this is a city that's been threatened by existential threats for its entire history. So it's it's built into the culture of the place.
Halle: Yeah. Katharine, what do you think?
Katharine: You know, when you first posed the question, Holly, I was thinking about how many times people in the climate space over the years have said to me, You do this work and you live in Atlanta, which really tells you something mostly about like the Bay Area and New York and D. C. probably, but my sense of how the environmental movement, quote unquote, headquartered as it is in those cities speaks past so much of this country.
Or historically has been, and it is hard to push uphill against the political mountains of Southern states. Having many people writing through climate in the South is really, really important.
It's so interesting because you sort of look at this list of. Different ways to affect systems change and the most powerful thing you can do in a complex system is address the mindsets or the paradigms out of which a system arises and ultimately tapping into the power to transcend them and to me that is narrative work that is culture change work like that is how you change mindsets and paradigms and that can feel Slow, it can feel diffuse, but I remind myself that like all the rest of it is not possible without cultural and narrative shifts, opening up the possibility for political movement for policies to pass for businesses to change the way they do business.
Like, I think the reality of being a climate writer is you are often a few steps removed from where you really feel change happen in a good way. And yet change doesn't happen in a good way without this work.
Halle: I am so very happy that you brought up that point.
Catherine, I feel like you kind of already answered this, but Nathaniel or Jeff, if you guys wanna hop in on your thoughts on if someone wants to become a storyteller, what role they could play in talking about the climate crisis
Jeff: As a storyteller, I have problems with this idea of solutions because we're all activists in the sense that we're.
Writing about this because we care about this, but when I start talking to people asking about solutions and things, I get very nervous and I get very uncomfortable because, you know, storytelling and activism are different and, you know, solutions are different for different people. And I want to bring attention to this and I want people to think that they can build a better world and all that.
But when it gets to. The solutions part of it. I just get uneasy as a storyteller not as a human being as an activist I can tell people things to do but when it comes to framing it in stories that gets hard for me
Nathaniel Rich: Yeah, I, I think that climate writing has been plagued by a conflation of The activist impulse and sort of literary or storytelling impulse, they're very different.
Now, I believe strongly that we need better and more activist writing and, and I would define activist writing as writing designed to motivate the listener, viewer, reader. To act typically in a specific way, how do we talk to those people? How do we change their minds? That's activism, right? And that's politics.
It's not literature, it's not storytelling. And I think the big difference here is that an activist to succeed has to simplify the question and focus it and design it to an outcome. And that's where we get to this talk of solutions. If you apply that same logic to storytelling, you essentially get bad stories, boring stories, where there's a good guy, bad guy, hero, villain, clear outcome, essentially, uh, it kills the complexity that is at the heart, the moral complexity that I think is at the heart of any great storytelling and any great literature, and I think the environmental world is full of those Stories where, you know, especially where we are in climate change, where often the best solutions are not perfect solutions.
They involve compromise. There are losers and winners. Not everyone will be happy with even the most prudent thought out solutions. And I find those are the most dramatic stories. And those are the ones that I try to Tell it. I think they're the ones that tell us the most about where we are now.
Katharine: I guess I, I think I fundamentally disagree with some of these, um, with some of these stakes in the ground.
And that's maybe reflected also in the kinds of work that we have each put out into the world. But I think that there is so much. Rich narrative work to do around solutions precisely because they are so very in process and because so very much of the future has yet to be written. So I co host a narrative podcast called A Matter of Degrees with Dr.
Leah Stokes, who's an academic, um, an energy expert, an activist, a writer. Sometimes we're telling stories about, like the last one we did from season three was about what is emerging in southeast Alaska around a regenerative economy that can make a thriving Tongass forest, the largest intact temperate Thank you.
Rainforest in the world to sustain and continue to feed local communities. Now, that's a narrative. That's, you know, it's dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. But it is fascinating to see and to hear the story of. What has brought that region and the people collaborating around solutions there to a point that a new chapter is beginning, and I cannot have this conversation unfold without also referencing Kendra Pierre Lewis is wonderful essay and all we can say of called Wakanda doesn't have suburbs.
She wanted to write that piece. She was still at the New York Times then, and this was a piece that didn't fit in a journalistic. Framework, but this is her assessment that we are fundamentally lacking stories, particularly in TV and film about the futures that we do want. If all we do is look back and say what went wrong and what's bad today and the bad things that are going to come.
We will absolutely not get to a just and life giving future for everyone. I think we desperately need more storytellers who are willing to like tap their imaginative power to help us wrap our heads around worlds that we can't conceive of, because I think that's what will help us get through this very liminal and challenging time.
Nathaniel Rich: I guess I would want to clarify what I said. I mean, I think there's great stories to tell in service of political outcomes. And I think you've seen certainly in the environmental community since the late eighties, there has been this messaging debate. How do we get people to care about this? And for the 1st, essentially from late 80s, when you had the hottest summer of all time, and James Hansen testifies before Congress saying global warming is here and essentially becomes very effective messaging to basically tell people how scary the future is going to be.
[00:22:23] And of course, it was accurate. And then after in the, in the early Obama years, you have this sort of new emerging line of people are checking out. It's too depressing. We need to inspire people with stories of hope and possibility. And I think that's all valid. I think it's important also, though, to recognize that this is in the context.
[00:22:43] Of how do we motivate people to act? This is an activist conversation that's unfolding. I do think it's still important to distinguish between, you know, the question of what's the best way to message to people to inspire them to act and what kinds of stories. Help us understand the ways in which we are being changed by this new world.
[00:23:03] We've created. I think those are 2 different projects. It's not to say 1 is, you know, better or more valid than the other. I think too often when it comes to this writing. They get mashed up and really to the disservice of both sides. I think we need great, you know, stories of hope and need stories of despair.
[00:23:21] We need all of it and we need more of it. But I think it's also important to understand that if this is something that you want to do in some capacity to recognize the different frameworks that are available. To you to pursue it. There's a lot of dimensions to pursue when it comes to writing about climate.
And it doesn't have to be as straight laced as I think it has been for too long.
Halle: Can you kind of walk us through how you go about finding your next book? What, how do you determine what story will be compelling? I'll
Jeff: take that just because I just finished a book. It's literally was reviewed in the New York Times today and it's coming out in a week. Very exciting. Yeah, and it's called, it is, the Heat Will Kill You First.
So it is not at first, at first glance, a story of hope and optimism , but I think it's a very hopeful and optimistic book. I just am driven by what interests me for this example, this book, I happen to be in Phoenix on a really hot day. I had to walk 10 blocks down the street downtown and I literally almost died.
I mean, it was like, how do people live like this? And I thought, Oh, that's a really interesting question, but it's really hard to figure out how to do a book and what you want to do. And, you know, you spend three years of your life or something like that committed to this. Thing you live with it, you know, you go through cycles of thinking you're a complete moron for thinking that anybody's ever going to care about this.
Just the emotional drama of writing a book is so difficult, and it requires a kind of commitment. It is why books are hard to write. It's just hard to stick with it. And then keeping the faith that anybody's going to want to read this thing.
Halle: Yeah, uh, I, I mean, It's about to come out. So are you still feeling that worried?
Jeff: Well, at this particular moment, four hours after reading a total rave in the Times today, I'm feeling pretty good. You would have asked me five hours ago before I read the rave in the Times, I would have Well, not so good. I had no idea, you know, how it would be received. And in fact, you can't really care about that too much because it can't be why you write the book to get were a reviews.
[00:25:45] You have to write the book because you care about the subject and you're lucky enough to convince a publisher or somebody to pay you enough to do that and to eke out a living at it. You know, Writing about climate change is not a path to fame and glory and riches for sure, right? So you have to do it for a reason that means something to you personally.
Katharine: I cannot wait to read this book. This is like a, pardon the pun, hot tip for any, uh, burgeoning climate authors out there. Do not publish at Earth Day, publish in the summer when inevitably climate, climate impacts are going to be high, um, and public concern will be up, you know, all we can save. I felt like rose in my body, like a thing that wanted to be in the world and I was.
You know, lucky enough to have a catalytic moment where I shared the idea with Ayana, Elizabeth Johnson, my co editor, we were on a rage hike along a river in Colorado, and she was like, I'm in and I love that. And we couldn't possibly 2020.
Talk about sort of being in the heart of darkness of another summer, a very intense climate impacts the run up to the election pandemic lockdown is still happening. I mean, it was a really heavy time. The book arrived at a moment that people needed to feel a sense of the community that is rising to meet this moment, and that is really captured in the pages of all we can save.
And I am in the early stages of concepting a collaboration now with the really amazing poet, Leah Naomi Green, of a collection of poems that's one of the mediums that we have not tapped into enough for making sense of this moment and our place in it and finding our way through the distress, um, and into something like Strength and courage.
Um, and a sense of possibility. So hopefully more to come on that project, but I'm super excited about the possibility of it.
Halle: Yes. I love this idea of bringing poetry in. Um, and Nathaniel, what do you think?
Nathaniel Rich: I find it hard to come up with great story ideas and stories that are worthy of not just my own serious attention, but also, but mainly like a reader's attention, because there's so much that's published.
That's not frankly. And so I tend to find myself gravitating to stories that ask questions that I don't have the answers to where there's some lack of resolution. And I feel that by asking these questions and pursuing them to their furthest reaches, I may never find definitive answers, but I will.
Understand them better myself better my understanding of of the world better and anything that has a clear resolution a clear ending a clear outcome i'm completely turned off by it it has to be something that essentially that unsettles me that sense of hearing is i think is often what is my shorthand for that.
Halle: Well, I think that this has been touched on a little bit throughout each of your responses. But what do you feel like is missing when a lot of people try to tell stories about the climate crisis?
Nathaniel Rich: I guess, I guess my short answer is greater use of the imagination, a sort of more fearlessness about engaging in these imaginatively. I mean, you have to do enough homework, so you're not getting things wrong, but lean into the imaginative aspect of it. And what that looks like will be different for every writer.
Katharine: I agree. I think I'm just so grateful. So many more people are doing climate writing. It feels like the whole field has grown and improved in such incredible ways over the last decade. And I think one thing is for the non climate writers, right?
If you are writing about something I think one thing is ostensibly Taking place in the 21st century and there is no climate context, like it's not a real story, right? It's not a plausible fiction story and it is certainly not a story of truth. And so I think that is one thing of just like wanting to see more climate reality in more stories of all stripes.
Halle: And Jeff, what do you think?
Jeff: Well, I couldn't agree more with what Catherine just said about the, you know, inner life of what it means to be alive at this moment and Well, like I said, it was like sex life of porcupines to people when I was told about it. Um, you know, I think so much of my writing has been seen as some little thing that you're somehow fascinated with that's kind of cute.
Katharine: I have to clarify, Jeff, were you, did you actually write about the sex life of porcupines?
Jeff: I have never even considered the sex life of porcupines. I know nothing about was like...
Katharine: I was like wait, is this a chapter of your work that I'm not familiar with?
Nathaniel Rich: I've written about the sex life of marmots, if that's helpful.
Jeff: No, but I mean, I just say that as a example of it's sort of how peripheral it was to what people have thought about it being part of their lives and that journey from the sex life of porcupines to the inner life of everyone is the sort of journey of the climate narrative in a way and, you know, for a long time, people were intimidated by it's like science.
It wasn't seen as this sort of thing that we're living in. I think it's such a rich field for novelists, even nonfiction writers. All of us are just, we're just sort of beginning to break the ground for another generation of writers to come in and do something bigger, deeper. It's a very powerful place to be as a writer
Halle: To wrap up, um, each of you have written a ton on this subject, and based on all that you've written and researched so far, what is the single most important message or takeaway that you've had from what you've written? And Jeff, could you go first?
Jeff: This is going to sound blindingly obvious, but it's true, which is that how we tell stories matter, how we frame a story, how we tell the story, who tells the story, where the story is told is really the great challenge of the climate crisis, I think it's not about solar power.
It's not about even political activism. It's about how do we tell this story? And when I say we, I don't mean me and you and. The writers, I mean, the entrepreneurs, the politicians, the political activists, all these different stories that are told, there is no one way to tell the story, but how does a person, whoever that person is, tell it.
Katherine: I mean, I agree so wholeheartedly with what Jeff said. Telling the stories in such a way that people can see themselves in the collective climate story. And participate in that collective climate story that we are literally all together writing in real time feels incredibly profound.
And I think there is an incredible responsibility in that because there is so much that is at stake. So getting that story told well, and that invites that kind of participation just matters so much.
Nathaniel Rich: I think I would just add that climate has been sort of exoticized. By the sort of scientific patina of it and the political and economic complexity of it has made it seem like it's the domain of science writers, I guess we'd call them technical writers of some kind.
But the more you look at it and the more you investigate stories, you realize that it's like every human story. It's about hopes and dreams and aspirations and fears and anxieties. Longer I've spent with this material and these stories, the more familiar it gets. The stakes seem larger, but we're talking about fights over power, over our future, over our political system, over our economic system, over equality in society.
So this sort of universality of it is crucial not to lose track of and to understand that we're really talking about the story of humanity and of our future. We're really talking about a shared fate.
HALLE: Well, I am so grateful that all of you were able to be here today. Thank you so much for being on Sea Change.
Nathaniel: Thanks for having us.
HALLE: Thanks for listening to Sea Change. This episode was hosted, edited, and produced by Carlysle Calhoun, our managing producer, and me, Halle Parker. Our sound designer is Maddy Zampanti. And a huge thank you to our guests Jeff Goodell, Katherine Wilkinson, and Nathaniel Rich for spending some time with us.
Sea Change is a WWNO and WRKF production. We're part of the NPR Podcast Network and distributed by PRX. To help others find our podcast, hit subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And to learn more about our authors, check out our website at wwno.org/podcast/sea-change.
Sea Change is made possible with major support from the Gulf research program of the national Academy of sciences, engineering, and medicine. WWNO's coastal desk is supported by the Walton family foundation, the Moreau foundation, and the greater new Orleans foundation.
Thanks for joining us. And we'll be back in another two weeks.
