WWNO skyline header graphic
Play Live Radio
Next Up:
0:00
0:00
0:00 0:00
Available On Air Stations
Sea Change

The Future Is Not Yet Written: A Conversation with Ayana Johnson

Dr. Ayana Johnson's uplifting book explores what's possible for the future of our planet.
Ayana Johnson
Dr. Ayana Johnson's uplifting book explores what's possible for the future of our planet.

What if we get it right? That's the question marine biologist, climate expert, and writer Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson explores in her new book. Ayana joins us to talk about climate solutions we have right now and what's possible for the future of our planet.

Looking for a link to the book? "What If We Get It Right? Visions of a Climate Future"

This episode was hosted by Eva Tesfaye and cohosted by Halle Parker. Our managing producer is Carlyle Calhoun Despeaux. Our sound designer is Emily Jankowski and our theme music is by Jon Batiste.

Sea Change is a WWNO and WRKF production. We are part of the NPR Podcast Network and distributed by PRX. To help others find our podcast, hit subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Sea Change is made possible with major support from the Gulf Research Program of the National Academy of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. WWNO’s Coastal Desk is supported by the Walton Family Foundation, the Meraux Foundation, and the Greater New Orleans Foundation.

You can reach the Sea Change team at seachange@wwno.org.

__________________________________________

TRANSCRIPT
*Note: Transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors (including name spellings). Please be aware that the official record for our episodes is the audio version.

EVA: Hey Halle.

HALLE: Hey Eva.

EVA: Halle, do you ever feel hopeful when you think about climate change?

HALLE: I don’t know if that’s the first word that comes to mind. But I try to stay positive.

EVA: Same. I think I try to stay hopeful but it’s hard when you’re seeing firsthand the impacts of climate change every day.

HALLE: Yeah, something about the word “hope” doesn’t feel right. But it’s not helpful to just talk about doom either, when there are so many solutions out there, we just have to implement them.

EVA: Well I just talked with Dr Ayana Elizabeth Johnson. She’s a marine biologist. And she doesn’t like the word hope, either.

TAPE -

HALLE: “Possibility” – I love that.

EVA: Yeah, it’s not like she thinks we should go crawl in a corner, but she agrees just hoping isn’t strong enough. She says there’s so much opportunity to reimagine our future.

We’re not stuck with just two choices: paradise or doomsday. We need to be able to ask the question: What if we get it right? Which is actually the title of her new book.

HALLE: So, basically that we need to understand that there’s a spectrum of futures in front of us. And have the courage as she puts it to picture all of those possibilities.

EVA: Picture the possibilities and take action to make them real. As she says a way to give climate action better vibes.

MUSIC

HALLE: I’m Halle Parker.

EVA: And I’m Eva Tesfaye, and you’re listening to Sea Change.

HALLE: In this episode, Eva sits down with Dr. Ayana Johnson, a marine biologist, a renowned policy expert, and a writer to talk about her new book. We hear about the importance of imagining what it could look like on the other side of the existential crisis that is climate change.

Eva takes it from here.

INTERVIEW

EVA: I'm in the studio with Dr. Ayana Johnson, a woman of many hats. She's a marine biologist, a policy expert, a writer with two books, and a teacher. You might have heard her voice before when she hosted a different climate podcast called How to Save a Planet. Ayana, thank you so much for joining me today.

AYANA: Of course. I'm so glad to be here with you.

EVA: All right, so you came out with your latest book this year. It's a collection of essays, interviews, and data called “What If We Get Things Right.” It's an inspiring title, especially when it comes to adjusting climate change, we're going to get into the different topics in your book, but to start I want to talk about you about this moving personal essay that opens your book. It's about a trip you took to Jamaica as a child. Do you want to talk a little bit about your personal journey and what inspired your passion for ocean conservation?

AYANA: So that chapter you're referring to the prelude is called an ocean love story and it describes. Yeah, how I fell in love with the ocean, how that love, that biophilia as it's sometimes called, really motivated me to want to work in ocean conservation. Um, my dad's from Jamaica. I learned to swim in the Caribbean, in the Florida Keys.

And just knowing that both Jamaica's reefs and Florida's were really a shadow of their former selves already in the eighties when I was first learning to snorkel was very jarring to me. I was like, well, what are we going to do about this? And maybe I can help help, you know, but also like how cool is the ocean?

Like, can this be my job to like swim around and know the names of the fish and figure out how they're doing what they're doing? Um, And so I think, you know, a lot of people have that part of their childhood, whether it's forests or oceans or fields of wildflowers or the night sky or bugs or whatever. Um, and that's something I've worked really hard to hold onto this, this love that motivates my work for beyond human species, right?

I mean, obviously climate change, and pollution and habitat destruction and all of that is impacting humans. But, I think it's important to also remember that we're one of 8 million or more species on the planet. and we're, we're, we're a part of this vast and very cool web of life.

EVA: Yeah, yeah, you mentioned that term biophilia, which literally translates to love of life. And I'll just read a little passage where you kind of talk about that. You say, “Like all strong feelings in the heart and gut. It is telling us something about what matters about where we can find joy and connection about what is valuable and sacred and about how to orient a moral compass in a decaying world. In other words, it is telling us how to survive." Could you talk a little bit about that connection to, like, our survival but also our connection to the greater world around us?

AYANA: And I think it's a connection that many of us don't really have very strongly anymore. So many of us live in cities. So many of us are out of sync with the cycles of the seasons and the cycles of migration, the cycles of reproduction, that we kind of miss. the changes that are happening before us. And if we're out of touch with, what has been normal, in recent human history, as far as nature, then we kind of don't appreciate the changes, how things are falling apart, how there's, how there are fewer birds singing, to borrow the silent spring, term from Rachel Carson, right? And if we don't know what we're losing. We don't have the proper motivation or alarm about how bad things are getting that would motivate us to do something about it. So, yeah, we've all got to sort of get outside and open our eyes and, and then I think very quickly realize we better roll up our sleeves and figure out what to do together. And not just in the sense of dealing with hurricanes and sort of the big things that we think of when we think about climate change, sea level rise. Um, but also a lot of the nuances.

EVA: I don't want to linger on this because, you know, this is about possibility, but, you know, we talk about the evidence and dire predictions regularly on sea change, like you just mentioned, and you make a point in your opening essay that you felt, even in your mid twenties, that there's In order to understand those coral reliefs, you needed to study how humans made the mess. And you did a great job of summing up how bad things are. Could you, just briefly talk about like why the climate crisis is such an urgent problem?

AYANA: Well, the place where I learned to swim in florida, the water temperature hit 100 last summer.

EVA: hot tub temperatures.

AYANA: That is not temperatures that coral reefs are, adapted to dealing with and the truth is that all species on this planet, humans included have a very narrow range of temperature, comfort, temperature, humidity, et cetera, salinity, pH in the case of ocean creatures as well.

Um, And if we think about, you know, what it's like for a human to run a fever, the difference between 100 degrees and 103 degrees is like hospitalization in often cases, right? If that lasts too long, that's the same thing that's happening to the planet, right? Um, that's how much we've raised the temperature. And so we, you have fish that are migrating towards the poles in search of cooler waters. We have droughts and floods, both leading to, um, food shortages and famines in different places. We have sea level rise that's going to cause hundreds of millions of people, perhaps to have to relocate. And we just aren't dealing with these problems head on at the scale and pace that's needed, in order to preserve a kind of life that we want to have on this planet. There will be life on this planet, but will it be Something that we are used to something that we want to be a part of that is the question and so as you mentioned this word possibility is something I really hold on to. I'm not an optimist per se. I'm a scientist, a realist.

I see the scientific projections, the possible futures that are quite bad, but I also know. That is scientifically true that which outcome we get depends on what we do. If we charge ahead with the solutions we have, if we reign in the burning of fossil fuels very quickly, very dramatically, if we restore and protect ecosystems and take advantage of all the magic of photosynthesis and all the carbon they can absorb, et cetera. we really can have a much better future, yeah, and that's what this book is about.

EVA: Yeah. how did you get from that place of kind of like looking at how bad things are to like the idea of possibility?

AYANA: I think it's just that it's a scientific fact. The future is not yet written. There are many different possible futures and what we do will determine which one we get. And so I'm just like, why would we not try to have at least one of the better ones? Seems worth the effort. Like, who else can I recruit to join this climate solutions team?

I mean, I can, I look at the data and I, I see, okay, we could have this, or we could have this. I'm like, well, one of those is way better. Um, and these increments, whether the earth warms 1 degree or 2 degrees or 3 degrees more are a very big difference. I mean, there are places. on this planet that are, will soon be too hot for normal human life. Huge swaths of the planet, right? And so what does, what does that mean? How do we, minimize that kind of thing and really think about evolving as a species to adapt to this changing climate at the same time as we are trying to prevent it from changing further?

EVA: Yeah. Yeah. How does that mindset help you as you were working to, repair the fisheries in the Caribbean?

AYANA: I mean, I think the cool thing about nature is it's quite resilient, right? If you put sustainable fishing practices in place, if you create marine protected areas, if you stop catching juvenile fish, if you protect the most reproductively successful, members of the fish population, right? If you protect the habitat that they live in. You can and will see fish populations recover if you switch to more selective types of fishing gear, et cetera. So, I mean, that was an early lesson for me. I mean, that's my PhD work. was all in the Caribbean looking at fisheries management policies, and it's sort of boringly straightforward, right? If you kill fewer fish, there will be more fish. and there are different ways you can. fish more carefully in order to keep things more in balance. And that was an early lesson for me, actually collaborating with Caribbean fishermen to redesign fish traps to let the baby fish and the ornamental species out. But there are some simple and practical solutions. So I've been sort of on the hunt for, um, what other solutions I could help push forward ever since then.

EVA: Yeah, and it must be really cool to just see the work you do have such an impact in front of your face. I mean, climate change it's such like, sometimes can be very abstract for people. So it must be nice to like, see how, um, you know, one thing affects the other.

AYANA: Yeah. I mean, I have no delusions of, you know, having made a huge impact on the future of life on earth or anything like that. But, um, I think it just feels good to do my part sort of regardless of what the exact outcome is. It's the right thing to do to be on the side of history where I pitched in and tried.

EVA: so one thing I wanted to ask about is that, um, you know, we here at Sea Change, we talk about hope a lot. We try to look at like reasons for hope in the face of climate change. But, you know, we've talked about the word possibility and, I know that in the past you've talked about how you, how you don't really like the word hope. Um, so could you talk about why that is and what do you think the word possibility brings that hope doesn't?

AYANA: I think, you know, looking at the definition of the word hope, there is an expectation of a good outcome. You know, when we think about optimism, right? Like it, it's going to be okay in the end. And I just don't. Know that that's the case, right? We could have a terrible outcome. I mean, the trajectory that we're on is really not good. Um, and so while I don't really have hope that our species, the humankind will necessarily get it together.

I mean, history has not shown us a ton of great examples of collective action, um, at this scale. Thank you. That's needed at the pace that's needed, um, but, you know, that there remains so much possibility. And so that's what keeps me going is, um. Knowing that we can still in many ways, shape the future, knowing that there are innumerable possible versions of the future. Um, and so it's worth the effort to try to have one that. Sense that works for our cultures, our communities, our families, our health, our safety, um, all that is worth fighting for.

EVA: Yeah, yeah. I recently talked to Mary Annalise Hegler and I just, it's so interesting. I don't know, talking to Black women about this, because I think that, um, I don't know, like, we have like a very realistic perspective on this thing, climate change, and both of you have kind of shied away from like this idea that we hear so often in climate journalism, like you don't want to scare people too much because they'll just disengage and, I don't know. I think it's good to be a little bit realistic while also offering, you know, that there are solutions and things we can do out there.

AYANA: Yeah. I mean, hope can be a useful motivator for people. I just find it to be sort of flimsy. There's, um, this writer, philosopher, Terry Tempest Williams, who, when I met her, we sort of instantly connected on our shared aversion for hope. And she said, I just wish people would make their vows to something deeper than hope, right? Like what else can we commit to that is more foundational, more fundamental, um, more steady than that.

EVA: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's very, that's very beautiful. I like applying it to climate.

AYANA: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

EVA: So in the book, you talk about these visions of the future called what ifs and you spoke with a lot of people from around the world. What were some of the visions that they had that really stuck with you?

AYANA: Let me look at the table of contents here. One of them was talking to a farmer and forester named Brian Donahue, who spoke about the need to revitalize small towns across the U. S. You've had a lot of small towns that are. Followed out in some really sad ways, loss of population, loss of local businesses, loss of, you know, vibrant cultures and communities that used to thrive there. Um, and how that has also been a part of the political divide that we're seeing in America, um, and that if people. Sort of repopulated those places of some people from cities move back to small towns, um, reinvested in those communities, to sort of rehabilitate them in various ways, um, and really focused on being good neighbors.

We could, um, heal some of the political divide while also doing the much needed work of, bolstering our food system. by. Creating more and more small, diversified, regenerative farming. and that seems like a really interesting opportunity to me because, the politics of climate change are really not great, right? We have one political party in the U S that denies the reality of climate science and the changes that we can all see with our own eyes. So the opportunity there is to say, because of our electoral college being what it is, and the immense, the disproportionate power that rural states have, on electing the president, and on the Senate. It's important to think about like, okay, well, where does our vote matter? And how do we start to, um, shift our political landscape so that we can actually get climate policies passed and get moving ahead with solutions that are funded by our public dollars, instead of continuing to provide massive subsidies to fossil fuel corporations.

EVA: yeah, A lot of that is happening right now with the Inflation Reduction Act and money that's in there for, for farmers and regenerative practices. So it's, yeah, it's interesting to hear that from, from just like one farmer, because I've seen it so high level. one thing, um, that I haven't asked you about yet. maybe you get this all the time, is, you know, you talk about your experience as a Black woman in, um, the book, and I was wondering, like, you know, being a Black woman, being from Jamaica, like, how did that, influence, your approach to climate solutions?

AYANA: I mean, I care about what happens to black people, right? Like, I want us to be okay. I want everybody to be okay, but I, I, I, I keep an eye out, you know, would be like an easy way to put it. This is a conversation I had in the book with Colette Pichon Battle, who is from the Bayou of Louisiana, who is a co-founder of the climate justice organization, Taproot Earth. And she and I had a big conversation about, A black diaspora and what home means in the context of a changing climate, especially in a place like Louisiana, where seal arises taking so much on the top of, you know, hurricanes taking so much.

And it really is a chance to re-envision, yeah, how we live together and, and a forcing mechanism in some ways for our culture to catch up with the climate realities we're facing. Yeah.

EVA: it's interesting the like you bringing up the diaspora and I'm also like, you know, not where I'm originally from. despite that, like, the, I feel like a lot of us are still, very much care about, like, the land that we're on because it's all connected. so I wanted to end on what individual listeners can do to help bring about change. This best possibility of humanity's future. And so you coined something called the Climate Action Venn Diagram. Could you explain what that is?

AYANA: So it's super simple. It's three circles. Um, this is something I just sketched literally on a piece of cardboard for myself when I was trying to figure out what to do next. the first circle is, what are you good at? So, what skills resources networks, um, do you have that you can bring to the table?

So that's number one and number two is what is the work that needs doing? So, what are the climate and justice solutions that you want to work on? Right? Is it. You know, restoring wetlands or figuring out justly sourced renewable energy or, um, improving public transit or insulating buildings, right? Whatever it is, um, there are many, many, many, many options, but we can't do them all at once as individuals. So, yeah, what's the. Solution you want to focus on and then the 3rd circle is what brings you joy. Or satisfaction, right? Or gratification, you know, what will keep you going in this work that is the work of our lifetime. So it has to be something energizing and not just like, uh, this needs doing, so I guess I'll do it, right? Cause we will burn out on that right quick.

So yes, what are you good at? What work needs doing and what brings you joy. And then simply figuring out how to be in the center of that, your personal Venn diagram for as many minutes of your life as you can. And that doesn't mean quitting your job and starting a nonprofit necessarily, probably not. We're often most influential in our existing roles, right? In our existing organizations, corporations, communities, churches, neighborhoods, schools, where we have the, detailed knowledge of how things work to influence change and the strong connections and possibility for forging collaboration.

So, um, yeah, we can think about you know, such a Venn diagram in our personal and home life, of course, but also in our professional life in our civic political lives. it's worth saying, because we're talking right before a huge election that electing people who get it on climate change, who are going to push for policies and funding for climate adaptation and mitigate mitigation of the impacts, of fossil fuels is critical. We cannot be successful at this if government is against progress and against solutions. So, um, yeah, that's where I'm. Personally, focusing my energy right now, and, in both environmental voter project, which encourages environmentalists to go vote and lead locally, which supports down ballot, local climate candidates are coming on my book tour with me so that we can use this, uh, moment as I get out the vote campaign, because it would be sort of reckless and selfish of me to just only care about selling books in a moment like this, which is such an inflection point for our country. And being that the U. S. is so powerful and such a major emitter of fossil fuels, it really affects the whole world.So, yeah, I hope people are engaged and taking this election seriously. And then after that, figuring out what else their Venn diagram says that they can can do to be a part of shaping this new world that we must create together.

EVA: Yeah, voting is definitely something important and also just one obvious thing you could do. but I, I think it's also important to note that, once you kind of figure out that Venn diagram, your impact might not be obvious. from the start. you said something about that in your essay in reference to learning about your father's legacy after opening the New York, New York's first black owned architecture firm. You say it's not about the glory. It's about the ripples. This is what progress often looks like. Success without rewards. how does that apply when you're, you're working towards the climate crisis in your own life?

AYANA: Yeah, I mean, I thought my father was a failure because he was a partner at, you know, one of the early black architecture firms in New York and he never really made any money. He didn't have, you know, a bunch of fancy buildings that he could point to and say, I made that, I drew that. Um, and I thought that's all that the job was, but the job was being the first.

Being someone who opened the door for others, um, being a mentor, being an example and taking a lot of the hits so that other people wouldn't get beat back quite so hard. And so learning that, that that part of his work had been successful, that he had in fact helped to pave the way for others was such an overwhelming lesson for me, Um, that came years after his death, unfortunately, and, and for me, it was this realization, like it, uh, it was this sort of line that we hear so often of Martin Luther King, like I may not get there with you, right? We don't know what the outcome of our efforts is going to be, but we have to try anyway. You know, we don't get to give up on each other and on the future of life on earth, even if it's not like quick gratification, get rich scenario. Right? Like we have to just keep trying. We have to do our part with no, um, yeah, even though we cannot see the future, even though we don't know how it will all add up. Um, and so I think to your point, there is something perhaps different for black folks who are thinking about the climate crisis, um, because we do have this long history of, of struggle and overcoming and,tenacity and creativity in the face of really big challenges. And all of those skills are and irreverence and joy, right? And all of that is needed now in this moment, more than ever.

EVA: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Last question. Have you found the answer to your question? What if we get it right?

AYANA: That's the last chapter of the book is my own answer to that question. And in part, it draws from, the 20 interviews that are the heart of this book. I might just have to leave that as a cliffhanger for people to check it out. What if we get it right? Visions of climate futures.

EVA: Thank you so much for joining us today on Sea Change, Ayana. It's been a joy.

AYANA: Thank you so much for having me.

OUTRO

Thanks for listening to Sea Change. This episode was hosted by me, Halle Parker and Eva Tesfaye. Carlyle Calhoun Despeaux is our managing producer. Our sound designer is Emily Jankowski and our theme music is by Jon Batiste.

Sea Change is a WWNO and WRKF production. We're a part of the NPR Podcast Network and distributed by PRX. Sea Change is made possible with major support from the Gulf Research Program of the National Academy of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine.

If you want to support Sea Change, share this episode with a friend and donate to your local NPR member station.

WWNO's Coastal Desk is supported by the Walton Family Foundation, the Meraux and the Greater New Orleans Foundation. We'll be back in two weeks!

Eva Tesfaye covers the environment for WWNO's Coastal Desk. You can reach her at eva@wrkf.org.
Halle Parker reports on the environment for WWNO's Coastal Desk. You can reach her at hparker@wwno.org.