Two decades after Hurricane Katrina and its devastating aftermath reshaped New Orleans and the Gulf Coast, we gathered to remember all that was lost, reflect on the lessons learned, and pay tribute to all the good that has been done in the two decades since. And, we look to the future: where do we go from here, and how can this region not just survive but thrive?
Renowned jazz musician Dr. Michael White performs original music written in response to Katrina and reflects on connections between recovering from the tragedy and the city's jazz culture. (Dr. White on clarinet, Mitchell Claire on bass, and Sevva Bennet on banjo.)
And we are joined by an esteemed panel:
Troy Carter - US Congressman. He was previously a member of the Louisiana State Senate, served on the New Orleans City Council, and was a member of the Louisiana House of Representatives.
Colette Pichon Battle - Lawyer and Climate Justice Organizer. She's the vision and initiatives partner for Taproot Earth, a frontline organizing project working across the Gulf and Global South.
David Waggonner -Architect and founder of Waggonner and Ball, an award-winning, internationally active architecture and environment practice located in New Orleans.
Josh Lewis - Scientist and Schwartz Professor of River and Coastal Studies at the Tulane Bywater Institute.
We’d like to thank the Broadside for hosting us and Nikkei Izakaya for providing delicious, local seafood for the reception. This episode was hosted by Carlyle Calhoun and Eva Tesfaye. Sea Change's executive producer is Carlyle Calhoun. Our theme music is by Jon Batiste, and our sound designer is Emily Jankowski.
Sea Change is a WWNO and WRKF production. We are part of the NPR Podcast Network and distributed by PRX. Sea Change is made possible with major support from the Gulf Research Program of the National Academy of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. Sea Change is also supported by the Water Collaborative of Greater New Orleans. WWNO’s Coastal Desk is supported by the Walton Family Foundation, the Meraux Foundation, and the Greater New Orleans Foundation.
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TRANSCRIPT
Intro
CARLYLE: Welcome to Sea Change Live, coming to you from the Broadside in New Orleans. I'm Carlyle Calhoun.
EVA: And I am Eva Tesfaye. So Hurricane Katrina began as just a disturbance off of the coast of West Africa in August of 2005, but the causes of the disaster were many, and there were a long time in the making.
CARLYLE: Even 20 years later, the repercussions of Katrina are still felt daily in New Orleans and across the Gulf Coast. We gather tonight to remember all that was lost, to reflect on the lessons learned and to pay tribute to all the good that's been done in the two decades since.
We're also here to look to the future.
EVA: So to kick off the evening, we'd like to first introduce you to a very special guest renowned jazz musician, Dr. Michael White.
Dr. White is a Clarinettist, composer, historian, producer and songwriter, a New Orleans native. He's played in brass band since he was a teenager, and he founded the original Liberty Jazz Band to help preserve the city’s musical heritage. . And he founded the original Liberty Jazz Band to help preserve the city's musical heritage.
CARLYLE: Please welcome Dr. Michael White and his band, y'all.
BAND PREFORMS ORIGINAL SONG BY DR. WHITE: “I Remember Katrina”
DR. WHITE: the name of that song was, I remember Katrina, and it came about because, uh, I was thinking about the 20 year anniversary coming up and I was thinking about doing a piece that kind of captures some of the different emotions and flavors that went into recalling the storm. So there are bits and pieces of different kinds of emotions in the different melodies.
EVA: Yeah. Yeah, I definitely noticed that. So. I have a couple questions for you, but first show of hands, how many of you in the audience lived in New Orleans during Katrina? Wow. So like about half the audience and, you know, so many people were personally impacted, and Dr.
White, you were one of them. You lost many things and among things you lost, you've talked about are some treasured pieces of New Orleans musical history. Could you talk a little bit about that?
DR. WHITE: Yeah, that's right. I had become. So enamored with traditional New Orleans Jazz when I started out. And I wanted to know as much as I could about the music, and it started out with me reading books and, you know, buying recordings and different things. But, uh, I started collecting musical memorabilia from a lot of older musicians. I started interviewing a lot of them. I was very fortunate when I started out as a younger musician to have known and played with, uh, more than three dozen legends of New Orleans Jazz that were born between the late 1890s and 1910. And they taught me a lot about the music that's not in books and things. So I collected a lot of things from them. And all of that was, you know, things that I had lost , in Katrina,
EVA: all of that.
DR. WHITE: Everything.
EVA: Wow.
DR. WHITE: Except what's in my mind and my heart.
EVA: Yeah. So you also recently wrote an opinion piece making connections between recovering from Hurricane Katrina and the city's jazz culture. Do you mind talking a little bit about that?
DR. WHITE: Yeah, well, you know, they asked me to write an editorial for the Picayune, and uh, I thought about the things that helped me to, to recover, and a lot of the people I know.
And I thought about our jazz tradition as being an important metaphor or model for recovery because some of the things involved in playing New Orleans Jazz are things that you really need, uh, in everyday life to, to come back from a disaster. One of those things was improvisation and how, you know, improvisation in jazz is you, you take a melody and you, you know, have to learn the chord structure of the song, and then you improvise your take on it.
And we had to learn how to improvise life again because everything changed. You know, when we came back to the city, our homes were, for, many of us were gone places we would get groceries, gas, you know, our routines were, were messed up. So we had to improvise a lot of things, you know, and also collective improvisation is an important part of New Orleans Jazz, and I realize that the same way if you have a jazz band, everyone has a basic role, but they're working together to create something.
And I realized that's what the community kind of had to do. And then I also looked at the metaphor of the New Orleans Jazz funeral, which, uh, was a good psychological, uh, uh, inspiration for recovery and the sense that the jazz funeral has two main parts. It plays slow, sad music to lament the passing of a person.
But the second part of the funeral is joyous with uptempo music and dancing. And that happiness expresses in the funeral that we're happy that a person is going on to a better reward, that they're free of earthly troubles and burdens.
And for many of us, hurricane Katrina, you know, I, I started out thinking about recovery. And I realized for many of us there was no real recovery. Some of us are still recovering, but there was no getting back to where you were, uh, life as we knew it ended.
And so you had to start life all over again. So after the grief and the sadness, you realize that that's an opportunity to begin a new life. So like the end of the jazz funeral, we should look at that optimistically and find joy and pleasure in a sense in beginning a new life.
EVA: Yeah. I think that is a great lead in to your next song. Do you wanna tell people the name of it?
So the name of this song is called “After the Storm Comes a Brighter Day.”
BAND PERFORMS ORIGINAL SONG BY DR. WHITE “AFTER THE STORM COMES A BRIGHTER DAY”
APPLAUSE
PANEL
Carlyle: So how do we build on the good work that's been done? How do we fix what needs fixing? How do we create a more equitable and holistically resilient Gulf Coast and even how can we not just survive in increasingly vulnerable places we love, but thrive? The joyful part that Dr. White was talking about.
These are really big questions and so thankfully we have an amazing and distinguished panel here, all of whom are actively engaged in the work behind these big questions. Us.
We have Colette Pichon Battle, a lawyer and climate justice organizer. She's the vision and initiatives partner for Taproot Earth, a frontline organizing project working across the Gulf and Global South.
We have here Congressman Troy Carter, now in his third term representing Louisiana's second district in the US House of Representatives. He was previously a member of the Louisiana State Senate, served on the New Orleans City Council and was a member of the Louisiana House of Representatives.
David Waggonner, founder of Wagonner and Ball, an award-winning internationally active architecture and environment practice located in New Orleans.
And last but not least, Josh Lewis. Schwartz Professor of River and Coastal Studies at the Tulane Bywater Institute.
Welcome. Thanks for being here. I'd like to first ask each of you. What's one way Hurricane Katrina connected you to the work you're doing now? I'll start with you, Colette.
Colette: Thank you. Peace everyone. I just wanna offer honor to the hoa, chi matcha and APA people of this land that we're on, um, and bring greetings from the Choctaw territory on the North Shore.
My work today is really around climate justice and we were one of the first folks to call Katrina a climate event extreme weather. And so the work that I've been doing for 20 years has really. Started and was catalyzed by Katrina. That work is now taking solutions from the front lines and trying to find, um, how we live a more sustainable life and going forward.
Carlyle: Congressman Carter.
Troy: when I think about Katrina and I think about where we've come and where we where we need to be, while we've made great strides in rebuilding, um, we see what's happening in Washington that's gonna require us to really retool and, and to, to build a closer and stronger team.
And that motivates me. It motivates me because, um, I know that we have one earth. And so I wake up every day knowing we've gotta save it. And Katrina taught us that we're resilient. Uh, even in the darkest days of Katrina, we demonstrated that regardless of our race, our party, our religion, our social economic standards, we were all equalized. And we demonstrated that we can be one.
Carlyle: David Waggonner.
David: well, I was gobsmacked, you know, I mean, it's just like what happened here?
The, uh, force of the water, the failure of the infrastructure. The reliance we placed on systems we didn't know anything about depending on others outside us to do it for us. And then this idea that this infrastructure was not somehow more than that, it had to be something that we live with, and that was a reversal, a perspective on what to do about it.
Carlyle: Josh
Josh: I remember driving over the twin Span bridge, uh, on the way back into town. And then coming over the high rise and seeing the city and taking that in. And I think from that point on, I just, every part of my, sort of, my curiosity, my heart, my, uh, hopes for the future. We're all intermingled with what occurred and, and to my family and to those around me. And uh, kind of configured my life from then on out. I don't think that's an unusual experience for people living in New Orleans, right? It kind of shifted everything like we heard, uh, Dr. White talking about. And so since that point, I've been trying to pursue work that contributes to. How do we work our way out of this situation? How do we come back, uh, better? How do we come back more equitably? How do we solve these very thorny problems that we continue to be faced with?
Carlyle: Of course we all know that, that so many terrible things happen during the storm and it's aftermath.
But can each of you tell us about a positive thing that happened in your field that was a reaction to the disaster? And we're gonna go down the line again. Colette,
Colette: Uh, in my field. Well, I'm an attorney, so I won't speak about the field, um, but I'll speak about my community. Um, I returned home. I was practicing corporate law, um, in DC and returned home after Katrina, began doing, um, legal work in my community. I live on the North Shore. And, um, if I saw the hands in the audience, so many of you know, there was a lot of paperwork after Katrina, so I was helping people do paperwork and folks didn't have money.
So I would get back to my FEMA trailer and would find bags of okra.Or bags of, um, beans and, you just. You realize that,it wasn't that people needed a nine to five job. It wasn't that people needed money, it was that people needed to have something to offer each other. And I had a legal background that could get people through the paperwork and help them understand the ramifications of what they were signing, and they had.
They had some okra and they had some shrimp, and it turns out I was hungry and they needed the paperwork. It was, it was a good, it was a good exchange. Um, but it just reminded me of what community is and how far we can get, even without those things we've been taught that we need, um, what we actually need is in our community.
And that was one of the, the good things I remember after Katrina. Yes,
Carlyle:. I love that. Congressman.
Troy: So, so in my area of government and community, um, one of the things that I was, I was most happy about is we were able to push back those who said, let's not rebuild New Orleans. Us we were able to reject the notion that we weren't worthy of being rebuilt, and we were able to convince the federal government to put money into shoring up our levies and to shoring up our, our areas of profound flooding. And that gave us the opportunity to grow. From that period, we learned from, uh, from Katrina, we built better. And like any situation, uh, we have to keep building better. We have to keep learning from. The previous mistakes, and I think what if I can have two things would be the resilience of the people who, although the media tried to paint a picture that everyone was scoff laws and, and doing nefarious stuff, there were so many incredible people, first responders, good Samaritans, who were putting themselves in harm's way to save people. That's the memory I have of us going through a very painful period – demonstrating the resiliency of the people of this region and the love we have for each other.
Carlyle: Yes.David.
David: Yeah. So, you know, everywhere you went, uh, at the gas station, grocery store, you met good people in the community.
We were stripped raw, we were all the same. We were, you know, vulnerable. As a designer, uh, we met a lot of people beyond this community. We were not only good people and like our people, they're also smart, like our people, but they had expertise. We didn't. And what they did was, volunteer it to us because we're not just, well, Hoboken would not like my saying that, right… We're special. A terrible thing happened to us. But the ability of people to come together and, and with whole heart and form a brotherhood, a sisterhood, people from the Netherlands, people from the us and really say, well, what's the best way forward as a designer, there's some things that you would do to change that pattern of land and water.
And so what was really inspiring that. There was this collective that exists today.
Carlyle: Josh.
Josh: Yeah. So, uh, I was. I just turned 20 years old when, uh, Katrina hit and, I feel like those next couple of years and even that first day began kind of a education and humanity and solidarity.
It was truly remarkable, uh, in my own professional field in this sort of world of science. Um, I will say that Katrina certainly, uh, made real mistakes of climate change to a much wider group of people.
Um, and encourage people to take seriously, uh, you know, not just what occurred in New Orleans, but what was, uh, you know, perhaps looming for other coastal places.
Carlyle: Yeah, I mean, I think probably a lot of people heard that New Orleans was a canary in the coal mine. People said that a lot after Hurricane Katrina, and they don't say that as much now. They're just, there's so many canaries. So. Congressman Carter, I wanna first start with a question that's on a lot of people's minds. We have an expectation that after a major disaster like Hurricane Katrina, that the federal government will come in to help. But now there's talk of reorganizing or even eliminating fema, a focus on putting a larger responsibility on each state to handle its own disasters.
What's your response to this, and what would those potential policy changes mean for Louisiana?
Troy: Well, thank you for the question. I have been very vocal on the subject matter. I have called out the secretary no, and President Trump on what I believe to be, uh, an ill thought policy. Here we are in the middle of hurricane season and we're contemplating getting rid of the agency that's responsible for helping us prepare for deal with and rebuild after.
Um, this is not a political or a Democrat or a Republican response. It's a human response. it's basic, in my estimation, common sense. Um, the notion that we would get rid of fema, punt all the responsibilities to the state, but give the state less money. These are not my words. This is the words of the president. it defies logic. Uh, I'm hopeful that our, our pushing back and I chair the um, the Emergency Preparedness and Recovery Caucus in the United States Congress. It's a bipartisan caucus. I founded. It had other members on both sides of the aisle to join me to push back against those things that would take away our efforts, our benefits to recognize climate change, to, to have FEMA not dismantle, but reimagined, Reformed made better, made stronger, more nimble to be able to get to the storm before it happens, be there during the storm, and help us build after.
So the notion that we would get rid of, uh, FEMA when we know that, and the other part of that is to decentralize FEMA and make 50 different FEMAs or in just certain states. Well, we know that with climate change, we know storms are going in places they've never been before. We've got mudslides in North Carolina.
We've got flooding and tornadoes in places we've never had before. We've got wildfires, which means every day brings on a new possibility. And if that one state, you said, oh, they never have natural disasters, so we won't give them FEMA-esque funding, what's gonna happen? Pay me now.Pay me later. I think it's a horrible mistake. I will continue to be very vocal and to push back against it because the people of Louisiana, but certainly our country, as we start to see more and more natural disasters need a FEMA type.
You can fix this one, but you can't dismantle it.
CARLYLE: So Colette, something that many people experienced after Hurricane Katrina was that FEMA's programs and investments weren't equitable. So how do we make sure investments in protection and resilience, whether they come from the federal government or elsewhere, are equitable and not actually widening inequality?
Colette: Inequality. Well, what most people didn't know, and I didn't know either until we started doing the paperwork, is that FEMA exists actually to protect real property. It doesn't exist to protect people. And when you got to things like recovery and what kind of money or resources you could get back, your recovery dollars were based on the market value of your house. needed your house rebuilt and the market value of your house because of redlining and other historical discriminatory policies, means my house in a black neighborhood, even though it's the same square footage as yours, is worth less. And so I actually got a lower FEMA check to build, to rebuild the same square footage house as someone who lived in a not black neighborhood or someone who lived, um, in an all white neighborhood, to say it more clearly.
The FEMA policies, a lot of the policies that exist in our, at the federal level and even at the state level today are based on discriminatory, um, at best discriminatory processes and, and standards that we've just used over and over and over again. And then we blame people for not finishing, for blight in their house. We blame people for not coming back. And then there's this whole sort of whirlpool we go down without realizing that the structures that are in place are not meant to treat people equitably and they don't, um, they are meant to reward those who have, and to really punish and penalize those who have not. to benefit from FEMA, you actually had to be a homeowner. New Orleans was 65% renter. So the people who actually got to rebuild after Katrina, you wonder why this city looks different? You wonder why the culture is a little bit different. Yes, this has been rebuilt, but this is not the same city. And I think as Dr. White mentioned, we, maybe we won't get back to the same thing, but there's a reason some people didn't come back.
They didn't qualify for the resources that others qualified for. And this went along race lines very clearly. It sounds like it went along, income lines, but the income lines in this country go squarely along race lines, especially in the south. If we're going to have a more equitable and just recovery, we're gonna have to deal with the thing nobody wants to talk about.
We're gonna have to talk about race, we're gonna have to talk about history, and we're gonna have to talk about repairing a history that has made particular communities more vulnerable to a new climate reality that very few of them had any part in accelerating. This is a hard conversation. Because it's gonna require very comfortable people to be uncomfortable and to think about what we need to do to balance the scales here so that we can all survive.
It's not impossible. It's not impossible, but it's gonna take a lot of courage and a lot of folks to say, you know what? Maybe we've gotta change the way we do this work. Maybe we have to change the way we make some of these laws, and maybe we have to change as Americans the way we consume and who we blame for not being able to rebuild.
Carlyle: Yes, and to everybody's points that have been made so far. Katrina exposed so many gaps in so many systems, and one of those systems involves water, which. David, you've spent years and years thinking about. After Hurricane Katrina, you traveled to the Netherlands many times, in fact, to study their flood control systems and to study their relationship with water. You worked with the team to develop the greater, the greater New Orleans urban water plan. The whole concept behind this plan was approaching water differently.
You've said until New Orleans embraces surface water, nothing's going to change. What do you mean by that and what are the most important ways we could do that now?
David: Well, let me back up and say there's a lot of brokenness. It's people and it's the landscape. When we started the process, we saw it as a landscape repair problem because it's so broken the way we've divided up everything and don't let the water flow where it needs. You can't with water, keep it in one place, We've learned that, huh? But we had three kind of basic principles in this. One was safety. First is safety. If you, if you might lose your life, and people did, it's not a good place to live. So you want people to live here, but is it safe to live here? [00:20:15] So how do you make a landscape that actually embodies this possibility of more safety? How do you use the land we have, the space we have? The second part of that equation is really about economy because first of all, you can't afford to run every time it. F it rains. And you can't really invest in a place where you're gonna lose your money that you put into your home.
And businesses don't invest in places. They lose their capital. So how do you get more out of the money? And how do we, this is not a inexpensive place to live. We have a lot of infrastructure. We depend upon where's the money that's gonna allow us to stay here, because it's not always gonna come from the federal side.
We have to generate an economy that can sustain us., you know, water is this other thing. It's basic, it's comes from where that's how they measure the potential of a planet or asteroid or anything else. So it's, it's really that, that lifeblood. land. And the eye of the earth that reflects the stars and we're living with a lot of it. And we're a place where we have Dr. White playing and we all get into the rhythm and the feeling of it. And so the safety of the people and the economy, the place, and then the spiritual joy of living in New Orleans, It's what motivated and what we offer with this plan.
Carlyle: Yeah, and I think that, you know, for everyone living in New Orleans. You're constantly reminded that where you look at a map, we're surrounded by water, but we see so little of it within our city.
So Josh, let's talk about that water. Let's talk about outside the levee. For New Orleans, perhaps the most critical components of our protection system are located outside the city limits, the surrounding wetlands that work to slow down hurricanes and lower storm surge.
But as we all here know, we're losing our wetland. We're losing our wetlands at a very fast rate. The single largest ecosystem restoration project in US history that was meant to combat land loss, the Mid Barataria Sediment Diversion Project – They could have come up with a shorter name for us, couldn't they? Was recently canceled. And the BPD Water horizon settlement money, that's been the main source of funding for coastal restoration, is set to run out in 2031. That's eight years from now. What do you think our course of action should be now and what should we prioritize
Josh: Uh, a lot of responsibility on that question to, to answer. Um, I'll offer a few thoughts though. I think, uh, you know, if we think about 2050. Right. Uh, a, a reasonable thing to expect by 2050 would be one to two feet of sea level rise. Beyond that, uh, say 2100, uh, there could be multiple more feet added on top of that. So that's probably what we should take as more or less baked in at this point, uh, which isn't to take anything away from working towards mitigating emissions or trying to address these problems, but. Based on what most science that I look at, that's kind of what we can, uh, likely expect.
So just with that two feet of sea level rise by 2050, most of the land around the flood protection system, um, in New Orleans is, will be right at that line or below it. The majority of, not all of it, but the majority of that land. So if that's the case. Then what, what level of ambition do we need to be able to address that?
And the Mid-Barataria diversion project is, was an ambitious attempt to address some of that, although the timescale for that being effective is quite long on the decades, um, to century level in terms of, you know, major storm surge protection.
If you think about the New Orleans lakefront, right? That's kind of that hard edge system. There's a levy and then there's a little sea wall, and then there's the water. Uh, that type of condition is gonna become more common throughout the region. And, uh, one lesson we can learn about the lakefront is that that area, Lakeshore neighborhood, is built on dredge sediment. It's reclaimed land. It's been moved by a dredge. They filled that in back in the thirties, brought that area up above sea level so we know how to build land in that way. And we also know how to use dredging to be very destructive, right? The Gulf Outlet channel, other types of, uh, you know, horrible outcomes that we've had in the region contributed to flooding.
But dredging is just a tool. It's not a, it doesn't have like a normative good or bad value to it necessarily. Uh, so if we're not gonna see those types of large scale river diversions, which I'm still hopeful that we, we can and should and will. Uh, how do we continue to grow our capacity to manage sediment in the region by any means possible at the community level, at the municipal level, uh, at the state and federal level?
How do we kind of, uh, become very skilled, more skilled than we already are in managing that sediment to ensure the future of the region? And I think that that's within our reach, but the clock is ticking and we need to get down to business on that.
Carlyle: Yeah, and dredging is something that's going on a lot to keep the shipping lane open in particular. But you're talking about dredging in the name of building land and saving communities. Is that right?
Josh: Yeah. I mean, we use dredging to do marsh creation projects. I think what I have in mind is something far more, uh, at a much larger scale than that, which is, again, I don't like this idea on some level.
I'd much rather use the river use natural methods, however. Given what I just sketched out in terms of sea level rise, I don't know a better option in terms of securing the future of the region than really developing our capacity to, to move that sediment mechanically.
Carlyle: Yeah. And Congressman Carter resilience, whether what everybody's talking about, resilience, building stronger, higher levies or coastal restoration projects cost money.
Uh, our position here at the mouth of the Mississippi River is vital to the country. So who should pay for coastal restoration and flood protection? Whose responsibility is it and what efforts are going on to secure the big money needed?
Troy: if we're going to have the negative impacts of offshore drilling. If we're gonna have whatever environmental issues come with that, we should enjoy the benefit to come back to Louisiana and to have a greater share. Now we've been successful. We're getting more than we've gotten before. Um, but how much is enough when we know that our shoreline is shrinking every single minute? So the, the, the realization that the, the federal government certainly has a role to play- a significant role because these waterways are more than just waterways. They are the lifeblood of our economy. When we have ships coming through these channels and they're pushing cargo, um, from all over the world.
Through one of the busiest ports in the country, uh, the rest of the world owes that to us. We know that it will, it will get worse if we do nothing. But we as responsible policy makers, uh, have to work with our nonprofits, have to work with our, our scientists have to work with, uh, the people that do this every day.
And we've gotta recognize that. What we fail to invest in today is what we won't have tomorrow.
Carlyle: Mm-hmm. Um, Josh, you know, historically we've managed our river for big industries that have been here - for oil and gas, for a big export business for the chemical corridor – A lot of jobs that have historically been tied to this, but would we manage our river and coast differently if we were thinking about greatest good for the greatest number of people?
Josh: Uh, depends on who's making that calculation, but yes, in my mind, of course, I mean. You think about the real costs associated with, uh, many of these industrial facilities and other facilities throughout the region, and, uh, you think about how the river itself, why is it configured in the way that it is? Why does it follow that path?
Why are the banks in the levees managed in the way that they are? Why is the whole lower delta starved of sediment? Uh, I think if it were left up to everyday residents of the region. That probably wouldn't be the situation. , there are, uh, long-term resources there that, uh, need to be on the table, uh, if we are going to figure out how to survive in this place effectively. Uh, much more than they are at this moment.
Carlyle: Yeah. And Colette, you're working with frontline communities. working with people who are seeing the land loss every day. How would you respond to that question?
Colette: I wanted the question on who should pay for it.
Carlyle: Go for it.
Colette: I have, uh, I agree with the congressman. I think the federal government has a role to play, but I don't know why, um, we don't stand up to these oil and gas companies who are responsible for doing this to our state. They've been killing the marshland that allowed for that 30 foot title surge to come as far in.
We don't have levees on the north shore. We didn't, we didn't need it, but there was a 30 foot tidal surge because the marsh was destroyed because oil and gas pipelines and shipping channels allowed for salt water intrusion to kill the very thing that protected us. And these oil and gas companies know that this is gonna happen.
They do all of the science, they know all of the research. They even know that climate change is an, is an inevitable reality. They did it anyway I don't know why we're being quiet and acting like we don't know where to get the money from. They didn't lose one, not one quarter of profit during BP. Not one, they didn't lose one quarter of profit during Katrina. They got beaucoup money over there with these big companies. We should sue them. They owe the next generation for what they have taken and what they have destroyed and we should file a lawsuit. And yes, I think if the people were in charge of the river, we would do it differently. Yes, I agree.
Carlyle: Anybody else on that question?
Troy: I want to echo the, the comments about that, you know, industry by itself is not a bad word. Industry is bad when it disregards the needs of the people, when it denies people clean water and clean air when you take more than you give. And as, as Colette was mentioning, uh, the people that are extracting from the, the river.
Who are digging deep and causing portions of climate change to exasperate and escalate. They've got a role to play too. They've better join federal government in that role in cleaning up what you're messing up.
Carlyle: So let's talk about a new vision then. Where do we go? Where do we go from here? We know that this region, New Orleans and, and Louisiana, we're losing population. A lot of traditional industries are shedding jobs.
So if I was to ask each of you, what is the narrative that we should embrace and live. That, that you could imagine for the future of New Orleans, the future of the Gulf Coast. What does that narrative look like?
Troy: Uh, uh, it's a narrative of inclusion, of recognizing that we're watching our natural our natural resources go away. We're watching the ability to, to sustain ourselves, be ignored by some who want to act as if climate change isn't real. We just saw a $7 billion, uh, solar grant canceled. 156 million was gonna come to Louisiana, not to red states or blue states.
It was gonna come to states. So, the vision of building a stronger, more resilient, more conscious society That means you've gotta save your money. You've gotta live, uh, in a way that does not put additional burden on the earth, and then you've gotta recognize the importance of investing back into it.
Carlyle: David Waggonner, what does the narrative sound like for you?
David: So I, I say New Orleans is a, it's been said, a prophetic city. It speaks ahead to the future. I think that culturally, we are blessed. You know, we can depend on that. Who are our heroes? What have they taught us? What have they stood for? What are the things that we should remember from them?
So we actually know where we need to go more than we did 20 years ago. We've learned a lot. We planted a lot of trees, so to speak. Uh, it takes a while, it takes some time for 'em to grow. Yeah. Uh, but it's time to wake the forest. It's time now for us to stand up. It's time for us to move ahead to embrace the spirit and listen to the children.
And, you know, they have ideas. They think they can fix this. So let's write into the future and listen well to one another, and especially the young.
Carlyle: so Josh, you've said you're bullish on New Orleans, so what's possible?
Josh: I think so much is possible in this place. Some of the central challenges that we have are, uh, things that are within society's capability of doing something different, uh, for New Orleans itself, like Orleans Parish affordability, housing and economic mobility – jobs that bring meaning to people's lives and pay them a decent paycheck.
And that they're able to deal with their various financial responsibilities, uh, insurance, et cetera, et cetera. Livability and affordability. People wanna live here. People who have left here didn't wanna leave. Uh, I had two of my sisters have relocated from New Orleans just in the past couple of years, and it was affordability.
They couldn't afford the rent anymore. There are solutions to those types of problems. Uh, we kind of know what they are. Other places have pursued them. Even in New Orleans itself, we had a long history of public housing programs, et cetera. uh, we kind of know what to do as a collective, and we just need to invest in that and unleash that.
Carlyle: Yeah. So Colette, what is your vision?
Colette: Yeah. When I think about a new narrative, I think, there's a new way to think about this. We're thinking old. I think the narrative is around us having the right to migrate. The right to return and the right to remain. Some of us will have, I live in that, that two feet of, of sea level rise. There's nothing we can do to save the place that I come from, but people have a right to remain. I learned that from the Atacapa Nation here in Louisiana. They said we are not leaving, and they don't have to.
But there are also people who wanted to come home who have not been able to come home. They have a right to return home, and we've gotta understand that this climate reality is going to move masses of people, not just in Louisiana, but across this nation and across this world. We are part of a global narrative of climate migration, and we've gotta get ready for that.
But the one thing I think we should be exporting is a history and a future of resistance. The only thing that has ever changed this country and this society is resistance from the South.. Yes, we have our problems.
Yes, we have our history, but the resistance that comes from the south changes this nation. And I think if we can, if we can get our act together now, if we can move our egos aside, if we can join together. We can put up a resistance to this ridiculousness that's happening right now and change this nation into something we can be proud of.
Carlyle: Well, I think that right there was a powerful place to wrap up this panel. We're gonna do a short audience q and a. We've got time for, for a couple questions here. So if people wanna raise their hand, I'm just gonna and, and call it out and then I'll just repeat it into the mic.
So the question from the audience is, it's August. 20 years after Hurricane Katrina. Are the people of New Orleans prepared for the next storm?
Troy: Better than there were 20 years ago. We've improved the levees. We've done things that are better. But because our nature and our natural disasters are ever-moving, it's an ever moving mosaic, we can never stop. We have to stay two steps ahead. So from my vantage point as a member of Congress, I will continue to fight to make sure that we're trusting the science, that we're listening to the scientists, that we're listening to, the people on the ground, that were recognizing the ebbs and flows of, of our environment.
And doing the right thing to prepare for it while shoring up our levees, building up our shorelines, making sure that we're building more resiliently, making sure that we're weaning ourselves off of fossil fuels, all those things that negatively impact our environment. We have to do that now to be ready in 20 years.
Carlyle: Does anybody else wanna respond to that question?
David: I, I think we're safer. I mean, I think the, the question is how much we keep investing in this 'cause we've lagged, and so how do we now move ahead with more commitment? Why do you have anniversaries right? To rededicate yourself? So I think, I think the opportunity, we know much more what to do.
We have assets that other cities don't have. Miami, Norfolk, Charleston, New York, San Francisco, they don't have any perimeter in the seas rising there too, right? We're we bought time, we have some time, but we gotta, we gotta work with each other and with others from elsewhere listening to this. Right? It's all together..
Carlyle: Well, I hope everybody leaves tonight inspired that it's about the people. It's about unity, and it's about believing in this place and fighting for it. I would like to thank all of you for coming out tonight and I would like for everybody to please give a big round of applause to this incredible panel here.
OUTRO
Thanks for listening to this live episode of Sea Change! We’d like to thank our panel, Congressman Troy Carter, Colette Pichon Battle, David Waggonner and Josh Lewis, and the band: Dr. Michael White on clarinet, Mitchell Claire on bass and Sevva Bennet on the Banjo. We’d also like to thank Broadside for hosting us and Nikkei Izakaya for providing delicious sustainable, local seafood for the reception. This episode was hosted by me, Carlyle Calhoun and Eva Tesfaye. I’m the executive producer is Carlyle Calhoun, Our theme music is by Jon Batiste and our sound designer is Emily Jankowski.
Sea Change is a WWNO and WRKF production. We are part of the NPR Podcast Network and distributed by PRX. Sea Change is made possible with major support from the Gulf Research Program of the National Academy of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. Sea Change is also supported by the Water Collaborative of Greater New Orleans. WWNO’s Coastal Desk is supported by the Walton Family Foundation, the Meraux Foundation, and the Greater New Orleans Foundation.
